Daily Kos

The Truth VS. Hillary

Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:00:05 AM PDT

Senator Clinton to AIPAC Feb. 1, 2007:

"Both Israelis and Americans know so well, a democracy is far more than just holding elections. Democracy has to spring from an active and open citizenry dedicated to tolerance, to respect for differences, to the rule of law, to policies that lift us up not tear us down as fellow human beings, and to the value of human life."-[1]

Jeff Halper, American Israeli, a 2006 Nobel Peace Prize Nominee, Founder and Coordinator of ICAHD/Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions to this reporter November 2006:

"Israel is a not a democracy but is an Ethnocracy, meaning a country run and controlled by a national group with some democratic elements but set up with Jews in control and structured to keep them in control."-[2]

.

When Israel became a state in 1948, it was contingent upon upholding the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights which guarantees in Article 13 that:

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Israel encourages any Jew without any pre-existing historical tie to the land to migrate under the Law of Return and all receive immediate citizenship and all rights and privileges including state-financed language and Jewish history immersion, free and subsidized housing, job placement and welfare assistance while seeking employment, medical, dental and other benefits.

Israel abetted by USA blind allegiance has blatantly refused to uphold UN Resolution 194, which guarantees the Right of Return-or compensation to the indigenous population which was forced from their homes in 1948 and 1967.

Clinton is unmoved by the facts on the ground that the indigenous peoples of that land have been denied human rights and dignity and that they are illegally dominated and oppressed with the aid of USA's "$1.8 billion a year in military aid and $1.2 billion in economic aid, plus another $1 billion or so in miscellaneous grants, mostly in military supplies, from various U.S. agencies. Tax exempt contributions destined to Israel bring up the total to over $5 billion annually." [3]

Clinton continued to satisfy the ignoble lusts of AIPAC as she continued to deny the truth,

"Israel is a beacon of what's right in a neighborhood overshadowed by the wrongs of radicalism, extremism, despotism and terrorism. We need only look to one of Israel's greatest threats: namely, Iran. Make no mistake; Iran poses a threat not only to Israel, but to the entire Middle East and beyond... U.S. policy must be clear and unequivocal. We cannot, we should not, we must not, permit Iran to build or acquire nuclear weapons. And in dealing with this threat as I have said for a very long time, no option can be taken off the table."

On Feb. 10, 2007, during a SABEEL [Arabic for THE WAY] Conference in Birmingham, Alabama, USA, Dr. Phyllis Bennis, a secular Jew, journalist, prolific author, Mid East analyst and Co-founder and Co-Chair of the US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation stated,

"Iran has signed the NPT, which allows them the right to have nuclear power and to enrich uranium. The 185 non-nuclear states have agreed to give up the right to have nuclear weapons and the five nuclear powers that signed the NPT agreed to get rid of their nuclear weapons... Iran is not in violation of the NPT, but America is! The USA has been in violation ever since the day they signed it. The USA is acting like a rogue state. The rhetoric out of Washington, the arresting of Iranian diplomats in Iraq, are deliberate provocations hoping that the Iranians will take the bait and respond."[4]

At her AIPAC fundraiser, Clinton continued her pimping for AIPAC funds as she persisted in denying the facts on the ground,

"We also know that the dangers posed to Israel have been compounded by the rise to power of Hamas, an avowed terrorist group that has assumed the reigns of the government in the Palestinian Authority and Hezbollah, the terrorist group that is represented in the Lebanese government. I have long said that Hamas must not be recognized until it renounces violence and terror and recognizes Israel's right to exist...Hamas terror campaigns have claimed the lives of hundreds of innocent civilians and its leaders have refused to disarm, to reject violence, or even to recognize the right of Israel to exist. We must insist that Hamas and indeed all Palestinian parties renounce terror and recognize Israel"[1]

Not only did the Palestinian Authority agree in 1988 to recognize Israel and reaffirmed this in 1993 during the Oslo Accords, Israel instead, has persisted in its unabated relentless seizure of Palestinian land, building of illegal settlements and pilfering of the indigenous peoples resources.

On November 15, 2005 , Senator Hillary Clinton stood on the Jerusalem side of The Wall and was quoted in Ha'aretz, expressing support for The Wall because it "is against terrorists" and "not against the Palestinian people." [5]

Senator Clinton,-as most of Congress- have NOT ventured to the other side of The Wall to view the economic and psychological effects of The Wall, which has been deemed illegal and must come down by the International Court of Justice in the Hague.

But, this reporter has, four times since June 2005.

After reading Senator Clinton's inaccurate, insensitive and pandering remarks in Ha'aretz, I immediately contacted her through her website, but my email bounced back, for I am no longer a New York constituent.

This really got my Irish up, for unlike Senator Clinton, I was born and bred in New York and I am more New York than Hillary will ever be.

Not being one to ever give up, I then snail mailed Hillary a respectful letter expressing my distress over her obvious pandering and blatant denial of humanitarian and International Law and informed her of the many gaps and lack of 'security' along The illegal Wall that I knew about from my visits to Israel Palestine in June 2005 and in January, March and November 2006. Every taxi driver, would be 'terrorist' and I knew the way into Jerusalem from Bethlehem without going through security checkpoints and The Terminal.

The only response I received from Senator Clinton was to be put on the DNC's mailing list soliciting funds.

Clinton has continued to fuel the fire of my Irish ire during her hustling of AIPAC funds as she purred,

"I've been a strong supporter of Israel's right to build a security barrier to keep terrorists out. I have spoken out against the International Court of Justice for questioning Israel's right to build that fence of security...I was deeply saddened and outraged by the suicide bombing in Eilat this week. Some are saying that Eilat was bombed because Israeli's efforts at self-defense through its security fence have been so successful. But Eilat is a tragic reminder of the threats that Israel faces everyday and underscores the importance of our continued support for Israel's right to protect and defend her people. The highest priority of any government is to ensure the safety and security of its citizens and that is why, as I have said, I've been a strong supporter of Israel's right to build a security barrier to keep terrorists out. I have spoken out against the International Court of Justice for questioning Israel's right to build that fence of security."[1]

If The Wall were actually built on Israeli land, Clinton could get a pass, but any map of The Wall clearly illuminates that The Wall is all about grabbing land and resources and dividing the indigenous peoples of that land from their families, jobs, land and holy sites.

Reported in the august, Washington Report on Middle East Affairs,

"Financed with U.S. aid at a cost of $1.5 million per mile, the Israeli wall prevents residents from receiving health care and emergency medical services. In other areas, the barrier separates farmers from their olive groves which have been their families' sole livelihood for generations."[6]

Clinton continued selling out we the people seeking truth, peace and justice as she pandered for AIPAC funds,

"On my trip to Israel a little over a year ago, I went to see the fence with my own eyes. During a trip to Gilo, a Jerusalem neighborhood, I was greeted by Col. Danny Tirza, who was overseeing the construction of the security fence."

The facts on the ground are that Clinton's Orwellian spun 'neighborhoods' are all ILLEGAL colonies for everyone exist on legally owned Palestinian land.

This reporter also went to see "the fence" which in actuality is composed of 25 to 30 foot high concrete slabs with razor wire, trenches, sniper towers, electric fences, military roads, electronic surveillance, remote controlled infantry and buffer zones that stretch over 100 miles wide that deny Palestinians access to their land, families, jobs, and resources.

Clinton's Jewish only colony of Gilo is less than a mile away from the ancient indigenous Christian village of Beit Jala , which is a five minute car ride from downtown Bethlehem. The Wall will soon completely separate Bethlehem and her sister villages of Beit Sahour, and Beit Jala from the northern parts of the West Bank. Because of Bethlehem's significance to and historic ties with Palestinian East Jerusalem, Bethlehem 's economic demise may well mark the beginning of the end of any viable Two-State solution.

If The Wall is completed in this area, 4000 dunums of the areas most fertile land will be isolated in order to accommodate for the expansion and the building of the ILLEGAL colonies/settlements of Gilo and Har Gilo. This means ancient indigenous villages have no potential for expansion.

This growing ghettoization of Bethlehem is not only destroying ancient communities, but the influx of nearly 900 new settlers, and plans for 30,000 new settlers to colonize the occupied West Bank, violates International Law and the Road Map, which prohibits settlement expansion.

The Wall and all of Israel's settlement colonies are illegal under International Law, but Clinton cares naught for the rule of law and the truth is The Wall is an APARTHEID Wall for it divides, separates, humiliates, dominates, controls and denies inalienable human rights to the indigenous people of the Holy Land.

Clinton continued in her denial of reality,

"Col. Tirza's explanation in his graphic depiction of what was part of the daily life of people living in that one neighborhood, gave me an even greater appreciation for the imperative of the fence and the need to do everything possible to protect Israel against these continuing attacks."

The truth is the militant attacks are rooted in frustration of the now  40 years of Israeli Occupation and the illegally settled Jewish inhabitants that continue to encroach upon the land and rights of the indigenous people of Holy Land.

International Law states occupation is to be temporary and the occupiers are not to transfer their population into occupied territory.

What Clinton is apparently clueless of, or cares nothing about, is the fact that in the year 2000, in Beit Jala, some hopeless militants who had given up on the peace makers of the West to demand Israel adhere to International Law, UN Resolutions and the UN Declaration of Human Rights, infiltrated this previously peaceful Christian village to shoot into the illegal colony of Gilo. The Israeli Defense Force immediately retaliated and the bedroom of George of Beit Jala was decimated.

The shrapnel that pierced the wall of George's sanctuary read "Made in USA" and was delivered from American made Apache helicopters that buzzed over his innocent head. If George had been in his bed, he would be dead.

I first met George of Beit Jala in June 2005, shepherded by an Internet connection, George Rishmawi, a Palestinian Christian, who met with the USA delegation from the interfaith, non-profit Olive Trees Foundation for Peace/OTFFP, of which I am a member. The OTFFP is dedicated to raising awareness and funds to help replace the over one million olive trees The Wall has destroyed.

During my initial visit with George of Beit Jala, I learned that he, his sister and mother all suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome, but Clinton, USA and Israeli government all just consider that collateral damage. George's father told me he has no bitterness about what happened even though the snipers had not even been near their home. The most difficult thing for him is the lack of employment opportunities in Bethlehem and being dependent on relatives and friends to feed his children.

Clinton's delusional descriptions continued,

"Now as a thriving democracy... Israel has also used its strengths to forge alliances throughout the world even when those efforts have not always been welcome."

Jeff Halper, American Israeli, Founder and Coordinator of ICAHD/Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and a Noble Peace Prize Nominee for 2006, informed this reporter:

"Israel is a not a democracy but is an Ethnocracy, meaning a country run and controlled by a national group with some democratic elements but set up with Jews in control and structured to keep them in control.... 1967 the Israeli government has destroyed over 2,000 Palestinian homes. 95% of the cases have nothing to do with security. All these homes are on Palestinian private property. The Israeli government will not grant permits for them to build on their own land, and in reality are quietly transferring the Palestinians administratively from the land. They make conditions so intolerable that the Palestinians give up and leave and this is exactly what they are after. Not only do the Palestinians receive no warning when their homes are to be destroyed they are fined $1, 500.00!

The Israeli government simply does not want to take responsibility and the USA government ignores the situation... Missing from Israel's security framing is the very fact of occupation, which Israel both denies exists...and that "security" requires Israel control over the entire country...rendering impossible a just peace based on human rights, international law, reconciliation.

Israel has no constitution but has a Declaration of Independence which promised that Israel would abide by conditions and UN resolutions. They have not fulfilled the agreement which was the basis of their independence.

"One out of three Israeli children lives below the poverty line. It's probably about 80% for Palestinians. Jews are like everyone else, those who have been abused grow up to be abusers. Things here have been turned on their head: its victim mentality and denial about the occupation. Once Israelis accept the fact that they are occupiers they will have to admit their State Terrorism.

"It has been said that the Israeli's do not love this land, they just want to possess it. There have been three stages to make this occupation permanent. The first was to establish the facts on the ground; the settlements.

"There are ½ million Israeli's and four million Palestinians here. They have been forced into Bantustan ; truncated mini states; prison states.

"It is apartheid and Bush and Hillary are both willing collaborators.

"In 1977, Sharon came in with a mandate, money and resources to make the Israeli presence in the West Bank irreversible. The second stage began in April 2004 when America approved the Apartheid/Convergence/Realignment Plan and eight settlement blocs.

"This is just like South Africa! The Bush Sharon letter exchange guaranteed that the USA considers the settlements non-negotiable. The Convergence Plan and The Wall create the borders and that is what defines Bantustans.

"Congress ratified the Bush plan and only Senator Byrd of West Virginia voted no and nine House Representatives.

"Israel has set up a matrix of control; a thick web of settlements guaranteed to make the occupation permanent by establishing facts on the ground. Israel denies there is an occupation, so everything is reduced to terrorism. It is our job to insist upon the human rights issue, for occupied people have International Law on their side."

"Missing from Israel’s security framing is the very fact of occupation, which Israel both denies exists...and that "security" requires Israel control over the entire country...rendering impossible a just peace based on human rights, international law, reconciliation."[7]

Clinton concluded her hustling by putting her foot in her mouth, "It is not enough for us to say the right things; we've got to be smart and tough enough to do the right things that will protect American and Israeli interests now and forever."

Tough and smart comprehends that the only way to security for Israelis is justice for Palestinians.

Tough and smart would demand an end to the occupation and ensure that all people do indeed have equal human rights.

No enduring peace, no security, and no reconciliation is even possible without the foundation of justice.

Justice requires mercy on the weak and oppressed and is always nonviolent.

During one of my four interviews with Jeff, he told me this 'joke':

"The Israeli government simply does not want to take responsibility and the USA government ignores the situation. Do you know why Israel does not want to become America’s 51st state? Because then they would only have two senators!"

They certainly have one vocal demimondaine and craving consummate pandering Senator who is currently lusting for the American Presidency.

SOURCES:

  1. http://clinton.senate.gov/... [all quotes from Clinton are from this source]
  1. Eileen Fleming, Memoirs of a Nice Irish-American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory Chapter 2,
  1. Page 24, Understanding the Palestine-Israeli Conflict, Dr. Phyllis Bennis. www.tari.org ]
  1. http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/... /the_way_truth_hope_and_solidarity_agains
  1. http://www.wearewideawake.org/... sk=view&id=98&Itemid=90
  1. Washington Report on Middle East Affairs Page 43, Jan/Feb. 2007
  1. Jeff Halper "Obstacles to Peace, A Re-Framing of the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict" page 1. April 2005

PS-I will be offline until 7PM EST. I will read ALL comments and respond to all thoughtful and thought provoking comments.

Tags: Israel, Palestine, Hillary Clinton, International Law, peace, freedom, justice, human rights, Democratic Party, rant (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 46 comments

  •  The only justice for Palestinians (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Turkana, idealistlefty, unfounded, zemblan

    will be the dissolution of Israel. Is this your proposition?

    •  Comment from the sideline (5+ / 0-)

      I don't really have a side in this.  And rhetoric like this:

      Clinton continued to satisfy the ignoble lusts of AIPAC as she continued to deny the truth

      doesn't make me want to rush to pick up yours.  If persuasion wasn't your goal with this diary, feel free to dismiss the attempt at constructive criticism.  

      •  Neither does this rhetoric (0+ / 0-)

        "It is not enough for us to say the right things; we've got to be smart and tough enough to do the right things that will protect American and Israeli interests now and forever."

        That's a totally true statement, not Clinton "putting her foot in her mouth."

        "Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow." -- Albert Einstein

        by KnowVox on Mon May 21, 2007 at 06:33:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  inflammitory and not supported in the diary (5+ / 0-)

      she may speak ill of AIPAC but AFAIK that is not a criminal or banning offense. And what part of " illegal settlements " is unclear to you? That is clearly what the diarist is discussing, which raises your post almost to troll with your verbal bomb-throwing to distract any discussion.

      "I will sink federalism into an abyss from which there shall be no resurrection..." Thomas Jefferson

      by tony the American Mutt on Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:36:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  sad to see Clinton throwing around nuke threats (6+ / 0-)

    no option can be taken off the table

    That means nukes in Washingtonspeak.

    She's pretty good in lots of ways but this talk is dispiriting. Still, I don't know how likely it is for her or anyone else to get elected without pandering to Israel at this point. The best we can hope for is probably an about-face after the candidate is elected.

  •  Ignoble lusts? (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    CJB, Turkana, unfounded, zemblan, KnowVox

    Really pushing the rhetorical envelope here, Miss Thang.

    Go fuck yourself, you pathetic keyboard anarchist.

    by MBNYC on Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:36:49 AM PDT

  •  So much for the truth (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Turkana

    upholding the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights which guarantees in Article 13 that

    The UN UDHR is not a legally binding document, it merely sets forth goals, it does not constitute law and does not confer a right of return

    THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive

    Israel abetted by USA blind allegiance has blatantly refused to uphold UN Resolution 194, which guarantees the Right of Return-or compensation to the indigenous population which was forced from their homes in 1948 and 1967.

    UN194 was a General Assembly Resolution, so it guarantees nothing, and as it appeared in 1948 is does not speak to 1967.

    Clinton's delusional descriptions continued,

       "Now as a thriving democracy... Israel has also used its strengths to forge alliances throughout the world even when those efforts have not always been welcome."

    A quote from Jeff Halper, no matter how many times you repeat it, does not make Israel not a democracy. So HC is hardly "delusional"

    Not only did the Palestinian Authority agree in 1988 to recognize Israel and reaffirmed this in 1993 during the Oslo Accords

    Hamas is not the PA, and they have disavowed the Oslo Accords.

    The Wall and all of Israel's settlement colonies are illegal under International Law

    The colonies are certainly a mistake but the wall is not illegal under International Law, the only legal opinion regarding it was an advisory form a court that had no jurisdiction.

  •  Is HRC's position materially different from (7+ / 0-)

    Obama's or Edwards's regarding Israel and Palestine?

    Are their positions materially different from the Democratic Party platform planks of 2000 and 2004?

    If not, which I believe to be the case, then isn't your quarrel really with the Democratic Party?

  •  Democracy in Israel, the US, and elsewhere. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    idealistlefty, unfounded

    Not satisfied with pointing out (what you consider to be) imperfections in Israeli democracy, you deny that it is a democracy at all.

    Was the United States a democracy

    • prior to the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment?

    • during World War II?
    • prior to Brown v. Board of Education and its progeny?
    • prior to the passage of the Twenty-Fourth Amendment?

    • prior to the enactment of the Voting Rights Act?

    • today?

    No reasonable person should deny that Arab Israelis suffer from various forms of discrimination. On the other hand, reasonable people should not deny that

    • their situation has improved over time;

      and

    • their position is considerably better than that of, e.g., Japanese Americans during World War II and African Americans until relatively recently in American history.

    Like the US and other countries, Israel can only benefit from a "warts and all" description of its society. This diarist, unfortunately, joins a self-selected group that presents only the warts; not all of them are real; and there is no regard for  the etiology.

  •  Unbecoming parochialism, essentialism and racism. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    unfounded, KnowVox, eileen fleming

    Eileen Fleming writes:

    "This really got my Irish up, for unlike Senator Clinton, I was born and bred in New York and I am more New York than Hillary will ever be."

    Unpacking Fleming's sentence, we find:

    • an anti-Irish stereotype

    • a shocking anti-immigrant bias

    • a claim that there is something essential about New Yorkers that both applies to people from all parts of the state and distinguishes them from people "born and bred" elsewhere

    Perhaps, one might say, I am too harsh in deconstructing what is only Fleming's careless use of language. But then one would have to demonstrate that Fleming's use of language, and respect for facts, is materially different here than in other parts of her writing.

    Fleming also acknowledges, by the way, that she no longer resides in New York: "I am no longer a New York constituent."

    •  NOT careless @ all-i meant every word (0+ / 0-)

      I meant that Hillary moved to New York seeking political power.

      I spent the first 3 years of my life in Greenwich Village and came of age in Levittown, Long Island.

      New York is in my blood and bearing;

      Thus, I am more New York than Hillary will ever be,

      and when a USA politician speaks on the GLOBAL stage; they should be woman enough to take state-wide heat!

  •  Due respect for the facts. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JPhurst

    As fact-checking Eileen Fleming's diary would be tedious, I content myself with reviewing her first allegation of fact, namely:

    "When Israel became a state in 1948, it was contingent upon upholding the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights[.]"

    A simple chronology suffices to falsify Fleming's assertion:

    • The United Nations General Assembly voted to partition the British Mandate, thereby authorizing the creation of a Jewish state, on November 29, 1949.

    • Israel became independent on May 14, 1948.

    • The declaration was not adopted by the General Assembly until December 10, 1948. (Saudi Arabia was one of eight countries not voting for the declaration.)
  •  This diary makes some good points. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hypersphere01, Terra Mystica, Diaries

    Based on the other comments I have read, I guess nobody is supposed to criticize israel or AIPAC here. Hmmmm, I have heard somewhere that that is the case on DKOS. Well, I think they deserve a fair bit of criticism. Other commenters take exeption to the diarists "use of language" but say nothing of the underlying accuracy of her general sentiment. That sentiment seemed to be...
    "( israel is violating human rights by building the Wall and taking palestinian property and rights away. Building the wall is against UN general policy, at the very least, as it violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and israel should be taken to task for it somehow, and hillary being so disingenuous about it does not help things) "

    I think in general terms, this is accurate. Like most folks who feel strongly about something, diarist may have gone a bit overboard in some of her rhetoric, but her underlying points are still quite valid.

    I cannot imagine why criticism of israel should be so off limits, even here.
    They are just another country as far as I am concerned. If their interests conflict with what is best for US interests, then I say to hell with their sacred cow status.

    If they are doing wrong, and very often they are, then let 'em have it! They should be no more immune to criticsm here than GWB, Belgium, Serbia, Canada, Darfur or anybody else!!!

    •  Criticism of Israel on dkos (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Cecrops Tangaroa

      Happens in diary form about 3-4 times a day.

      Evidence this piece of recycled speechifying alongside yesterday's piece on how the jews are listening to your phone calls.

    •  Oh, and on the wall (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Cecrops Tangaroa

      It went up and suicide attacks stopped - good luck convincing the Israeli voters to take it down.  

    •  Of course, Israel is not immune from criticism. (3+ / 0-)

      Among other things, I myself have criticized house demolitions -- Jeff Halper's special concern.

      Rather, what many DKos members object to is

      • diaries and comments that bespeak an attempt to demonize and delegitimize Israel; and

      • toward that end, play fast and loose with the facts and are written in an abuse or inflammatory manner.

      Many of us are concerned when a diarist does not participate in the discussion of her own diary.

      And many of us also are concerned by the absence of any considered attention to either what US or Democratic Party policy ought to be to help constructively resolve the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people, especially when a good model already exists, namely, the Clinton Peace Parameters, which envisage an end-of-conflict peace settlement based on the principle of two states for two peoples.


      June 5th Initiative

      •  Oh, so.... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        hypersphere01, Terra Mystica, Diaries

        House demolitions are bad, but stealing peoples farmland and denying them access to emergency services and free travel is "a-ok!" glad you are such a charitable soul. For a second I thought you were just another enabler of Israel,
        y'know, doing things that violate the UN resolutions and that stuff. Glad to see you are so fair minded. It's also very nice of you to declare yourself the arbiter of what is "demonization" or "Deligitimization". Also quite white of you to point out who is and is not "inflammatory"
        If you listen to Repukelickins, anyone who criticizes them is "inflammatory".
        Do you feel the same way about criticizing israel? It kind of looks that way.

         Again, not everybody out here has a built in deference for Israel, and many of us feel that they should be held to the same standards of national conduct as everybody else. Sorry if you feel that they should be able to violate at least some of the UN's principles and policies without repercussions. I disagree with that. I think israel has a general policy, (like current US administration) of doing whatever the hell it feels like, regardless of international agreements, treaties or laws. I understand that they need to defend themselves, but in saying they have the right to carte blanche while doing so is exactly the same as saying Gitmo and the patriot act are an appropriate way for the US to run the "war on terra"
        Endorsing Israels actions while decrying those of the US is absolute hypocricy.

        •  If you're interested in civil discourse, then (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Cecrops Tangaroa, unfounded

          please read some of my diaries and past comments before you stereotype me. If you're only interested in flaming, then flame away. I won't join you.

          •  I don't need to, thanks. (4+ / 0-)

            I responded to he comments you made here, and the underlying notions I saw as being behind them. I see you cannot do the same. If pointing out the flaws in your arguments is "flaming" then so be it. You really sound like a republican, though. Let me illustrate...

            Criticism of israel is "Inflammatory"
            Criticism of your comments is "flaming"

            You took issue with my comment. Did I accuse you a "flaming"? No, I simply responded with the best explanation I could of what I was thinking, versus what I thought you were trying to get across. I see that you are so insecure that you have to accuse anyone who takes issue with your positions as being not interested in "civil discourse" Again, how nice of you to define what that is for all of us who are just not on your obviously lofty plane. Nice. So, by your framing, the only way for me to engage in "civil discourse" with you is to passively read your past screeds. Well, pardon me, but based on your attitude and comments here, you will excuse me for not being terribly interested.

            •  oh, and BTW (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              hypersphere01, Diaries

              Are you not "flaming" the diarist in this case quite relentlessly? It certainly seems so. Indeed, If I am "flaming" you, then you are literally firebombing this diarist.

            •  Don't be daft (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Cecrops Tangaroa

              If you can't see that this diary is hyperbolic and agenda-driven, there's nothing that can be done for you.

              •  look who is talking.. (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Diaries, Dr Felch

                talk about daft.

                Don't fight it son. Confess quickly! If you hold out too long you could jeopardize your credit rating. --Brazil (1985)

                by hypersphere01 on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:40:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I already noted..... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                hypersphere01

                .....that there were some over the top elements to this diary, but I stated that there were some valuable points here, too. Mainly I was taking issue with the other commenter, and his unfounded assertions about what is and is not,

                "inflammatory" or other demeaning attacks he levelled at anyone, including myself, that disagreed with him. This diary, like almost all diaries, is going to look flawed in some way to almost everybody. The point is trying to glean the
                interesting arguments from it without just discounting it because you have issue with the tone of some of the rhetoric. As for your pathetic one-liner attack on me,( "nothing can be done for you")  Well, I'm sure you and I agree on many things, but this is not one of them, and I would refer you to my previous comments to see clearly what my opinion on this diary actually is. It is a nuanced one, and not an absolutist view, like so many seem to have.

              •  Note the personal attack above..... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                hypersphere01

                "Daft" he calls me, Then responds to the commenter below calling him out on his attack by screaming "personal attack!"
                It is O'Reilly-esque in it's total hypocricy. He attacks me, then gets all bothered when somebody directs his own attack back at him.

                That's why I don't get mad. I just consider the (hypocritical) source.

                •  I said "don't be daft", not "you are daft" nt (0+ / 0-)

                  •  Same thing. (0+ / 0-)

                    By saying "don't be daft" you are saying that I, or my comments, were "daft", and that I should stop being "daft"
                    How utterly gutless of you to attack me, then, when I point out your hypocricy, to back off and play like.."who, me?"  
                    Nice try, but you attacked me, then, when someone directed the very same attack back at you, you got all offended, Illustrating perfectly that what you did to me, you felt was wrong to do to you.
                    I have thusly made you look like the hypocrite that you are. my work here is done.

                    But seriously, if you apologize to me, there will be no hard feelings and we can forget this ever happened. We are political allies, after all.

      •  Another Voice of Wisdom and Reason (0+ / 0-)

        USA taxpayers provide 1.5 million dollars per mile to construct the 30 foot high concrete monster and miles of electrified fence and razor wire that does NOT divide Palestinians from Israelis as much as it divides Palestinians from their families, jobs, land, holy sites.

        The Wall does NOT follow the Green Line and the International Court of Justice in the Hague has repeatedly deemed it illegal and must come down.

        Silence is complicity and if "you are NOT a part of the problem; you are a part of the solution"-Eldridge Cleaver

        And Thanks to another American for being open to the real facts on the ground.

      •  I am an Endorser (0+ / 0-)

        I have been involved in this effort for months.

        I endorsed under organization:
        WeAreWideAwake.org, Clermont, Florida

        I am ever more hopeful now to learn you are involved too.

        Where in the world are you?

        I must go offline again for few hours-will respond to the rest of thoughtful and thought provoking comments later on.

        e

      •  2 states=1 Peace/Piece (0+ / 0-)

        I am an endorser of this initiative too.

        It is a global step before the June 10th March on DC and lobby day in Congress to say:

        Enough of Israeli Occupation!

    •  A VOICE of REASON and WISDOM (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dr Felch

      Thanks Dr Felch for hitting the nail on the head.

      AIPAC is all about AIPAC, and NOT about what is best for Americans.

      We the people are culpable in occupation and oppression of others by virtue of being USA tax payers.

      I wonder if this audience is aware of:

      http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

      The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation. It is the goal of "If Americans Knew" to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue with the desire to bring a resolution  

      •  Thanks for noticing! (0+ / 0-)

        It seems there are a lot of progressives here who have decided that israel can do no wrong. It is amazing how closely that mirrors the neo-con worldview. I have no such deference for them. Just like GWB  is just another asshole to me, Israel is just another country. No more or less deserving of
        support or criticism than any other. I think it would be usefull if all US citizens started viewing israel through the lens of what is best for America and the world, instead of what is best for their cousins in haifa, etc.
        America first. Israel is not America. Israels interests are not necessarily America's best interest.

  •  the points in this diary well taken (4+ / 0-)

    There is no real dialogue at a national level in the United States on its support of Israel, in regard to how that support should manifest, and what character it should take.  Mention Israel, and any potential dialogue, instead of addressing real issues concerning Israel's security wall, parameters on what U.S. funds can be used for by the Israeli government, initiatives to make both Israelis and Palestinians back down from positions completely unacceptable to the other and reach a compromise solution, degenerate into meaningless accusations of anti-semitism and denial of such.  The paper last year by Walt and Mearsheimer was roundly attacked by various critics, even though it merely makes obvious points that cooler heads in both Israel and the United States have known for years.  No progress on this issue can be made in such an atmosphere, until cogent and level-headed critique of Israeli policy is seen as analysis, with an eye to solving problems, and not immediately defined as anti-semitism.

    There is little wisdom in the Israeli government's current tack of building a security wall.  It will seem to aid in the short run by lessening suicide attacks, but in the long run will only strengthen the resolve of those groups bent on attacks, nudging them toward acquiring even better means and weapons to circumvent the wall.  It will also be another factor to drive more moderate Palestinians away from believing a peaceful solution is possible.

    History is full of examples of the inadequacies of this idea.  The Chinese sacrificed many lives, squandered energy and resources in the building and maintaining of their Great Wall.  It did not prevent China from being invaded numerous times during its history.  The Berlin wall only stirred up resentment among the citizens of Berlin.  World opinion, outside of Israel and the United States, looks upon this security wall with disdain.  It will likely do more harm than good over time.

    Both Israeli and Palestinian positions are tending to intractability.  The important role the United States plays in the area requires very public debate, open to entertaining all views.  AIPAC certainly has a right to state its case, but American policy decisions cannot be driven by either their agenda, or the agenda of a Palestinian group equivalently one-sided in its account of the tale, should such a group arise in the future to the position of influence that AIPAC currently enjoys.  The United States has a responsibility to promote wise solutions, not additions to the problem.

    •  I'm with you, snobby! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hypersphere01, Terra Mystica, Diaries

      I'm not exactly ivy league, but you said what I was trying to articulate in a far more eloquent and tactful way. Well done.

    •  You Said It! (0+ / 0-)

      Thank You ivyleaguesnob for:

      Both Israeli and Palestinian positions are tending to intractability.  The important role the United States plays in the area requires very public debate, open to entertaining all views.  AIPAC certainly has a right to state its case, but American policy decisions cannot be driven by either their agenda, or the agenda of a Palestinian group equivalently one-sided in its account of the tale, should such a group arise in the future to the position of influence that AIPAC currently enjoys.  The United States has a responsibility to promote wise solutions, not additions to the problem.

      -

      My questions to all American politicians and seekers of office are:

      1. How much AIPAC money, trips and perks have you accepted?
      1. How much time have you spent in occupied territory?

      This civilian journalist intends to make a 5th trip to OPT this July and report more about 'life' in the 60 year old Holy Land refugee camps.

      e
      http://www.wearewideawake.org

  •  The role of Mark Penn in Hilary's campaign (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hypersphere01

    needs to be understood. From E Pluribus Unum: Mark Penn: Power Center in the Clinton Campaign
    which quotes various sources:

    While not her campaign manager in name, Penn controls the main elements of her campaign....

    Armed with voluminous data that he collects through his private polling firm, Penn has become involved in virtually every move Clinton makes...

    Penn gained his foreign policy expertise working on numerous campaigns overseas, especially in Israel. In 1981, he and business partner Doug Schoen helped reelect Menachem Begin...

  •  eileen fleming's choice of interenut fora (0+ / 0-)

    thepeoplesvoice.org Environmental, Political, and Social Justice Issues...sounds kewl eh!
    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/ dig in and you find lots of lyndon larouche and articles extolling holocaust denialist e. zundel

  •  aryan nations lawyer, w/eileen fleming (0+ / 0-)

      jeesh,
    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/...
     Hell, No - I Won't Go!!!
    Edgar J. Steele
     google edgar j. steele aryan nations, find lotsa lovely racist s%^&^

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