Daily Kos

2 People + 2 States=1 Peace/Piece

Tue May 22, 2007 at 04:12:21 AM PDT

"I don't know if we as a state of the Jewish people will be able to survive either. Our hatred, our fears, our extremism and our arrogance have helped us to arrive at a place and a time when the possibility of liberating ourselves from the occupation of the Palestinian people may be too late. I, for one, am at a total loss of what happens then. Once the possibility of creating a Palestinian state next to Israel is no longer real, it seems to me that the dream of a democratic state of the Jewish people comes to an end. Israel can and will continue to exist but it will no longer be able to claim its commitment to democracy or to prophetic values of our Biblical teachings."- Gershon Baskin

Gershon Baskin is the Co-Director of IPCRI, the Israel-Palestine Center for Research and Information and one of the visionaries of the Global June 5th Initiative. He also comprehends:

The State of Israel is on the defensive. Next month, pro-Palestinian groups across the world will be marking 40 years of occupation with calls for protests and boycott. The anti-Zionist movement is picking up speed. The entire world is against the occupation.

The good news is that the State of Israel is also against the occupation - its people and government seek peace with the Palestinian people on the basis of "two states for two peoples." Speaking at the United Nations in September 2005, Prime Minister Sharon said that the Palestinian people are "entitled to freedom and to national sovereign existence in a state of their own."

The Israeli public relations strategy must be premised on this position - the State of Israel wishes to end the occupation; it seeks peace and is willing to take risks in order to achieve it...

...the position of "no partner" was very convenient for Prime Ministers Barak and Sharon, who espoused complete separation from the Palestinians. However, today we still keep saying there is no partner. Palestinian leader Abbas is indeed weak, but instead of repeating this as if the State of Israel was not at least partly responsible for his weakness, we would do well to quickly grasp that his weakness does not serve us, and that Israel's actions only serve to further weaken his constantly deteriorating status.

Proof of this is the situation in the Gaza Strip: Israel argues that Abbas controls tens of thousands of uniformed police officers, who fail to curb the Qassam rocket attacks. Is that indeed the case? His loyalists have not been paid regularly for more than a year now. The Palestinian Authority's government system has collapsed a long time ago. Gaza Strip residents live without any personal or social security. They can see neither political nor economic horizon.

Radical elements pay every boy willing to fire Qassams at Israel NIS 250 (roughly USD 60.) The Gaza smuggling, and we are not only talking about arms, helps many make a living. Gaza residents have almost gotten used to the occurrences of abductions for ransom. There is no law and order. Private militias are being established on a daily basis.

Perhaps Israel does not bear direct responsibility for this situation, yet it is certainly a direct result of its policy. The complete lack of Palestinian Authority control in Gaza threatens its hold over the West Bank as well. Similarly, the weakening of the moderate and non-religious parts of Palestinian society boosts the radical Islamic sectors not only in Palestine, but rather, across the region...

...the IDF and Shin Bet are busy scaring the Israeli public in order to apparently prepare it for yet another useless military campaign in Gaza. They tell us that American General Dayton's plan for improving the economic situation in the Territories by easing restrictions on movement is dangerous, claiming that it would boost terror. They also say that opening the road connecting Gaza to the West Bank, even under Israeli monitoring, would enable the transfer of technologies - as if this information cannot be relayed through e-mail.

They are seemingly scared of the transfer of arms through truck convoys - yet each truck departing from Gaza undergoes a strict and thorough security screening process. Don't we trust this screening process, considered the most intrusive in the world? Why don't we approve and implement? Perhaps we prefer real estate and control over another people over an end to the occupation after all?

Instead of putting an end to our control over the Palestinian people, we invent patents that make us feel as though we are not occupiers, while maintaining the occupation nonetheless: For example, the unilateral disengagement; "We're here - ? they're there"; bypass roads that circumvent Palestinian communities, so that settlers can travel through the land of settlements as if there are no Arabs there; road arteries for Jews only; security fences, which are in fact separation walls and obstacles that enable us to maintain our control. Meanwhile, we're here -but we're also there. And so are they...

...Does anyone actually believe that the Palestinians will resign themselves to the grand land grab taking place in the shadow of the walls? Does anyone think that the world will accept the imprisonment of millions in large detention camps such as the Gaza Strip and growing parts of the West Bank?

True, Israel left Gaza, yet the occupation there continues. Israel still maintains full control over the borders; we open and close them when we want to. The European observers in Rafah are helpless in the face of Israel's blatant violations of the agreement. Since the opening of the Gaza-Egypt crossing, the border has remained open roughly 30 percent of the agreed-upon time, thus leaving about a million and a half Palestinians imprisoned in one of the globe's most crowded areas.

...the destruction of Palestinian governance in Gaza and perhaps later in the West Bank is a disastrous situation for Israel. Whether they realize it or not, we need a Palestinian partner...

...I don't know if we as a state of the Jewish people will be able to survive either. Our hatred, our fears, our extremism and our arrogance have helped us to arrive at a place and a time when the possibility of liberating ourselves from the occupation of the Palestinian people may be too late. I, for one, am at a total loss of what happens then. Once the possibility of creating a Palestinian state next to Israel is no longer real, it seems to me that the dream of a democratic state of the Jewish people comes to an end. Israel can and will continue to exist but it will no longer be able to claim its commitment to democracy or to prophetic values of our Biblical teachings...

...After 40 years of occupation, it is time for all of us to be liberated.

Sources:
http://www.jpost.com/...

Answering my criticsGershon Baskin,
THE JERUSALEM POST, May. 21, 2007.

http://www.ynetnews.com/...

Who's at fault? Israel bemoans absence of Palestinian partner, but we are partly to blameDr. Gershon Baskin

--------------------------------------------------------------------

DO SOMETHING:

ENDORSE The June 5th Initiative,

After 40 years - the time has come!

The World Says Enough of Israeli Occupation!

http://www.june5thinitiative.org/

Join the June 10th D.C. March to Light a FIRE under Congress to Do Something to end the occupation this year, which will be the happening of the summer of 2007:

http://www.endtheoccupation.org/

Tags: Gershon Baskin, Israel, Palestine, war, peace, human rights, international law, justice (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 57 comments

  •  Gershon Baskin's important message is distorted (7+ / 0-)

    by coupling it with a call to join the June 10th "end the occupation" march, which embraces an asserted Palestinian right to return to Israel, the antithesis of the two states / two peoples / one peace message of The June 5th Initiative.

    In his Jerusalem Post article, Baskin affirms his Zionist vocation and dedication to "the existence of State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people." In other words, Baskin is within the mainstream of the Israeli peace camp. He writes:

    I have been called everything from a self-hating Jew to a post-Zionist. I am neither. I am and have always been very Jewish and very Zionist. The main motivations behind all of what I believe are in fact both my Jewish identity and my Zionist one. For me the existence of State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people is the ultimate expression of the national strategic interests of the Jewish people. It is an expression of our liberation and our determination to be a free people in our land. But Israel cannot fulfill the national strategic interests of the Jewish people if it is a state built on oppression, persecution and denial of the national rights of another people.

    Baskin's restatement of these beliefs, with which I have identified myself for my entire adult political life, I hope make clear that coming to terms with Israel, and Israelis, cannot realistically be based on insisting on demand, such as "one state" or a "right of return," that negate Israel's character, or at least aspiration, to be a democratic and Jewish state.

    Baskin answers his Israeli critics by asking them to for a practical alternative:

    FROM ALL of my critics I have yet to understand in practical terms what they propose as an alternative to serve the interests of Israel and the Jewish people. I don't believe that there are real Jews who could even think of the possibility of removing the Palestinians from here by force. There is the notion of "transfer by choice" - a ridiculous idea based on the suggestion that if we make their lives so intolerable, they will chose to pick up and leave on their own.

    Baskin's critics, IMHO, have no good answer.

    Likewise, I have been asking "pro-Palestinian" critics of an end-of-conflict peace settlement modeled on the Clinton Peace Parameters or the Geneva Initiative to explain in practical terms how they propose to achieve their desired solution either peacefully or non-peacefully, considering the demonstrated willingness and ability of Israelis to defend their state, the structure that grounds their collective life.

    Like Baskin, I have yet to see or hear an answer that I can understand. Some people look askance at my insisting on asking these uncomfortable questions, even though I am just as insistent in posing Baskin-like questions on the rare occasions when I run across a "pro-Israel" comment advocating a position inconsistent with Palestinian national self-determination.

    All I can say is that, most members and supporters of the Israeli peace camp are, in the words of the late Yehoshafat Harkabi, doves with talons. We have been, and will be, strong, consistent allies in any peaceful struggle for a Palestinian state based on acceptance, at least on a going forward basis, of Israel's continued existence as a Jewish state. We do not even require abandonment of dreams of a future Palestinian right of return to Israel and of a single state. But we do insist both on peaceful means and not counter-posing those dreams to practical efforts to immeasurably improve the lives of both peoples, particularly the Palestinians, by achieving two states for two peoples, living together in peace.

    June 5th Initiative

    •  P.S. Eileen, if you have (4+ / 0-)

      permission to reproduce so much of Baskin's writing, please note the permission in the diary. If not, I urge you to summarize more and reduce the extent of your quotation to the "rule of thumb" three-paragraph fair use site standard.

    •  NONVIOLENCE is The ONLY WAY (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      heathlander

      I have been to OPT 4 times since June 2005.

      My MEMOIRS are ALL about NONVIOLENT resisters of the occupation; secularists, atheists, anarchists, devout Jews, Christians and Muslims in solidarity to END THE OCCUPATION;

      When that happens; peace and security will organically follow;

      NONVIOLENT Resistance demands Justice

      Equal and Universal Human Rights for all is The Way to Peace and Security for all.

      e

    •  will you be in DC June 10? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes, heathlander

      I will, again and again, until ALL Occupations that are furthered with my tax dollars End.

      e
      http://www.wearewideawake.org

      •  No, for two reasons. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        unfounded

        First, even if I wanted to go, my younger daughter graduates from high school and celebrates her 18th birthday at the end of next week and that weekend.

        Second, I do not want to go because I do not support either a right of return to Israel or a one-state solution. More than that, I regard advocacy of those positions -- except as dreams to be pursued peacefully only after achieving and implementing a two state for two peoples end-of-conflict peace settlement -- serves only to prolong the occupation, harm chances for peace, and increase the prospect of more violence.

        YMMV.

        June 5th Initiative

        •  What do you think of this? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          heathlander

          What if every citizen in the Holy Land of voting age received 1 vote.

          1 vote for 1 state or 1 vote for 2 states?

          What if the settlers stay and live as neighbors-the army must leave; the occupation must end,

          Cousins we are; Jew, Christian and Muslim, all connected in the dysfunctional family of Father Abraham.

          Do you see the need for voices of wisdom and positive action from the members of the 3 Abrahamic paths?

          e
          http://www.wearewideawake.org/

          PS- I must go offline now- will be back in few hours and hope to read many thoughts to above questions.

          •  Not in the foreseeable future. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            zemblan

            So far as I can tell, and I have been to both Israel and the Palestinian Territories, the vast majority of both peoples want to live in their own state.

            Well, you might say, then the vast majority of the votes will be cast for two states. But I see at least two problems. First, many Palestinians are likely to insist that Palestinian refugees living outside Eretz Israel/Palestine be entitled to vote. That is likely to chill whatever slight acceptance the proposal otherwise might have engendered among Israelis. It also may prompt an Israeli counter-demand that Jews eligible to make aliya to Israel under the Law of Return also be entitled to vote.

            Second, while I believe that a clear majority of Israelis will support, either in elections or in a referendum, a two-state, end-of-conflict solution along the lines of the Clinton Peace Parameters, they are most unlikely to vote for a two-state proposal, much less a one-state proposal, in the abstract. In other words, before one could submit a referendum question on one versus two states, it would be necessary to negotiate the details for two peace settlements: the two-state settlement and the one-state settlement. I am unable to suspend my disbelief so far as to credit the possibility of this being accomplished in the lifetime of anyone now living.

            IMHO, we have to start with the materials available in the world as it is. These materials, with effort, make possible the realization of a two-state peace settlement. Perhaps, as the two societies gain experience from living together in peace, it may become possible, sometime in the future, to strive peacefully to persuade the two peoples to form a more organic connection, either by way of a single state or some kind of federation.

            But, IMHO, counter-posing those dreams to a two-state peace settlement, and opposing an attainable good in the name of (what you may regard as) the ideal, only frustrates chances for an attainable peace, thereby doing a serious disservice to the Palestinians in the current serious plight.

          •  What do you think of (0+ / 0-)

            my take on the issues in An important message for Israel-Palestine peace?

            At the end of the diary, I give you a hat-tip for drawing my attention to the two Baskin articles.

        •  aA, I dont know much about this June 10 thing (0+ / 0-)

          but here's what it says on their website:

          "Our Principles and Purpose

             * We stand for freedom from occupation, and equal rights for all. International law guarantees these human rights, including the right to exist in peace and security.
             * We aim to change those U.S. policies that sustain Israel's 37-year occupation of the Palestinian West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, and deny equal rights for all."

          What's objectionable about that?

          •  Please read their FAQ. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            brittain33, Cecrops Tangaroa

            Here:

            Q: What is the US Campaign's main focus?

            The US Campaign focuses on US government, corporations, and other institutions that sustain Israel's domination of the Palestinian people and denial of their human rights. These human rights include an end to the occupation of Palestinian land in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, full equality for Palestinian citizens of Israel, and the right of return for Palestinian refugees.

            Q. Does the US Campaign support the Palestinian people’s right of return?

            Yes. . . . The US Campaign has, from its inception, supported the right of return as a human right. . . .

            Q. By advocating for the end of occupation does the US Campaign advocate a two-state solution? Or does it endorse a one-state solution?

            The US Campaign does not endorse either a one-state or a two-state solution, but rather upholds the Palestinian right to self-determination. We believe the Palestinians must be empowered to exercise this right, and that the international community has a responsibility towards the right of the Palestinian to self-determination. . . .

            Careful readers will note the absence of any reference to a Jewish or Israeli right to self-determination.

            •  Hmm.. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes

              ..OK it supports that right. Although, you know, I think most supports that right. I'm not exactly sure how to read it - supporting the fact that they have the right, or supporting the complete fulfillment of the right. One is possible without the other.

              When coupled with the refusal to endorse either the two- or one-state solution, it's probably the case that it was left deliberately vague in order to be a big tent, including supporters of both.

              Certainly, I would imagine that many (if not most) of those going on the march will support a two-state solution (and so will not support a full honouring of the right to return), even though they will support the existence of that right in principle. If this is not the case, then I doubt many people will be on the march.

              So I think it can be read either way, and that perhaps it was left deliberately vague so as to encompass as many people as possibly.

              •  typos: "most people support that right" (0+ / 0-)

                and "as many people as possible". Arg.

              •  Possibly, but then why does it affirm only the (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Five Thirty, zemblan

                right of Palestinians, and not also Jews or Israelis, to self-determination?

                In all events, most Israelis and most friends of Israel, including lovingly critical, dovish friends such as myself, understand the claimed Palestinian right to return as negating Israel's continued existence. Moreover, we know that responsible Palestinian leaders know that such a right is a non-starter.

                Al Quds University president Sari Nusseibeh relates in his recent autobiography, Once Upon a Country: A Palestinian Life, a meeting during the second intifada at which Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) objected to Nusseibeh, who then was the PLO's representative in Jerusalem, having publicly declared his belief that the right of return could not be part of a peace settlement. Nusseibeh had declared:

                Israelis and Palestinians are not enemies at all. If anything, we are strategic allies. Israelis may think that America is their real ally, . . . and Palestinians think that Arabs or Muslims are theirs; in truth, the only two parties who are objectively allied with each other are the Israelis and the Palestinians, because, like it or not, we have a shared future. Our mutual interest that the future be better than the present creates an objective alliance between us.

                              * * *

                Our shared future has to provide Israel with a secure guarantee for its existence as a Jewish state, but it also has to provide Palestinians with a secure guarantee for their freedom and independence in their own state.

                Abu Mazen objected to Nusseibeh on what he presented as pragmatic grounds:

                It wasn't, he said, turning to me and staring me in the eyes, that he was an extremist or a demagogue. "You know how pragmatic I am." But this particular matter was related to the process of negotiations. "You just don't declare your fallback position free of charge." For him, giving up on the right of return was a question of tactics. He knew that the specter of millions of Arabs swarming back over the Green Line terrified Israelis. This turned the issue into our trump card. . . . Abu Mazen was our chief negotiator at the time. By taking away negotiating chip, he felt I was torpedoing his strategy.

                Nusseibeh's response, which the consensus held persuaded Arafat, was that the right of return no longer was a trump card. Hence there was no pragmatic reason against declaring their true position, which indeed actually would be to their benefit:

                . . . It was an open secret to our Israeli interlocutors that we weren't going to insist on the wholesale return of refugees. The only people who weren't privy to this secret were our refugees and the Israeli people. The people in the camps, I continued, had  a right to know what our position was, and that our national interest required that they accept less than full historical justice. The Israeli people also needed to know that we were not planning to swamp their country with refugees. If they knew this, it would strengthen our hand in negotiation, and put the Sharon government on the defensive.

                            * * *

                "You have to level with us," I demanded. "What is it you want, a state or the right of return? . . . Because that is what it boils down to. Either you want an independent state or a policy aimed at returning all the refugees to Israel. You can't have it both ways."

                IMHO, Nusseibeh is correct:

                • Properly understood, Israel and Palestine are strategic allies because their longterm national interests dictate a successful mutual relationship.

                • Palestinians are entitled to and need independence in their own state.

                • A Palestinian state cannot be imposed on Israel, and gaining Israel's agreement for a genuine Palestinian state requires giving up full realization of a right of return, which is to say that its realization will have to be limited to the state of Palestine.

                • Making public Palestinian recognition that a right to return to Israel is off the table benefits the Palestinian position because it defuses the principal Israeli fear, thereby strengthening Israeli doves and weakening Israeli hawks, and it has the added virtue of treating the Palestinian people like adults, respecting them, and helping prepare them for the future.
  •  UPDATE (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    heathlander

    I am new on this site, still learning the rules.

    I have been emailed that i broke the 'canard' of quoting a friend or a source whose OK it is understood i have to cross post their words.

    I will email Gershon NOW and as soon as I get his reply to satisfy the rule keepers, i will post it.

    Also- how long am I suppose to wait around for comments?

    I will return after receiving Gershon email.

    thanks for your patience and consideration.

    e
    http://www.wearewideawake.org/

    •  When you contact Baskin, please (0+ / 0-)

      bear in mind that the two newspapers involved likely assert copyright in everything they publish. Accordingly, IMHO, you need to confirm with Baskin that he has the right to grant you permission to reproduce the articles. Alternatively, perhaps he can help get you permission from Yediot.

      •  YIKES! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        heathlander

        I have been writing on the www since July 2005 and  have published 2 books with many sources cited.

        I still had no clue as to ALL of these copyright rules and regulations you point out.

        I suppose the web editors i know are not so fussy,

        OR:

        The New Fourth Estate is breaking and making new rules; truth comes first, not editors or conglomerates.  

        As a writer, I am ecstatic when ever someone re-posts my words, but I don't work for $$$,

        I pursue justice and work for peace.

        e
        http://www.wearewideawake.org/

        •  Many publications may not care when (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rusty Pipes, unfounded

          individuals copy the occasional article. Especially when a link is provided, they even may appreciate the publicity.

          The problem for Daily Kos, however, is that reproduction without permission and beyond the limits of "fair use" exposes the site and its principals to potential legal liability and monetary penalties. The more important the website, perhaps, the greater the likelihood that copyright violations will be noticed and prosecuted. As I understand the situation, that's a risk Kos justifiably does not want to run.

        •  The reasons (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          another American, unfounded, zemblan

          It's true, Daily Kos (like Free Republic) takes these issues very seriously. It's because, as a big fish, it draws the attention of copyright holders in a way that smaller web sites don't. Kos would be liable for any copyright problems and anything that makes him look negligent or tolerant toward unauthorized reproduction will cause him major problems. But it's tough when most of the content is generated by a user base in the 10s of thousands, most of whom don't fully understand copyright law. Hence, they err on the side of strict enforcement.

          In any event, diaries are generally encouraged to include some personal contributions, thoughts, and context if they are anything more than simple breaking news. It's probably good to rely on fair use (three paragraphs or less is a rough rule of thumb) with a greater explanation of why the reader should care and read further at the linked site. Honestly, people don't have a lot of tolerance for reading long tracts written by third parties they don't know unless they're deeply passionate about an issue.

        •  Just to be on the safe side, (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          zemblan

          you may want to either

          • withdraw this diary and republish it after you've gotten permission, or

          • reduce the extent of your quoting from the Yediot article until you get permission.
          •  THANK YOU ALL for this INFO (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            heathlander

            The above is already published on Peoples Voice and Opednews.com, so if i made a real screw up, i am grateful to learn and will NOT do it again.

            But, since it is all over www already, i will trust all will be well,

            for all we are all saying is give peace a chance,

            What follows is an excerpt, that i hope is NOT too long from:

            http://www.june5.org/...

            The Initiative Mission Statement

            ...Over the years, Israelis and Palestinians have been fighting each other endlessly, ferociously resulting in death, devastation, and destruction. In recent years polls repeatedly show that the silent majorities of both peoples understand that they have no other national home, and that neither side is going to leave their homes. Hence, most people believe that it is time to reach an historical peaceful compromise, ending the occupation and ending the conflict. During the week of June 5, 2007 the June 5 Initiative for Israeli-Palestinian Peace, a civil society initiative together with various NGOs and individuals, will send a loud and clear message to the peoples and leaders of the region and around that world that the silent majorities of Israelis and Palestinians accept a peaceful compromise based on the "two-states for two peoples" formula on the basis of the 1967 borders...

            ...We call on our leaders to initiate non-stop negotiations for peace until full agreements are reached. We affirm that there are partners for peace on both sides. We assert our commitment to the principle that the Palestinian and the Jewish peoples have a right to a state of their own, and that they have a right and deserve to live in peace, security and prosperity.

        •  Usually, individuals (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rusty Pipes, another American

          and sites like Electronic Intifada etc. don't care (although their permission is still required), but newspapers like Ha'aretz and JPost do (they usually charge a hefty fee for reprinting their articles).

  •  eileen flemin's choice of internut fora (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    zemblan

    thepeoplesvoice.org Environmental, Political, and Social Justice Issues...sounds kewl eh!
    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/ dig in and you find lots of lyndon larouche and articles extolling holocaust denialist e. zundel

    •  On its "Mission" page, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      zemblan

      The Peoples Voice makes clear that, among other tings, it is a 9/11 conspiracy site:

      On September 11, 2001 the New York, World Trade Towers were cleverly demolished killing 3000 people from America and eighty different countrys. On that same fateful day something punched a clean 12-foot in diameter hole through three of the Pentagon's defensive rings, which consist of six, eighteen-inch thick steel reinforced concrete walls a total of nine feet thick. The Pentagon was designed as a defensive structure to resist attack. The plane's aluminum alloy body disintegrated on the first defensive ring causing extensive damage to the building face, but what punched the clean hole through the nine feet of reinforced concrete and knocked out numerous steel reinforced concrete interior building columns? Military experts agree that only the most robust of missiles are capable of doing such damage to heavy structures. Known as Bunker Busters, they can penetrate up to ten feet of reinforced concrete. Only the Boeing’s engines were big enough and heavy enough to actually penetrate one of the Pentagon's defensive rings, but because of the angle of entry even that is questionable. Assuming that it was an engine that drilled a single clean hole through nine feet of heavily reinforced concrete, one must ask, where is the other hole from the other engine?

              * * *

      The Blick, largest Swiss newspaper in Zurich, openly suspects the Bush administration for the 9-11 atrocity. "The more we research, the more we doubt the Bush version." The Swiss aren't the only people who suspect Bush. Today over 35% of the American people also believe the Bush administration was complicit in the events of September 11, 2001. . . .

    •  I STAND ON MY WORDS (0+ / 0-)

      I do not censor anyone or give a flip who else is published by any editor-

      i stand on my words,

      why do you choose to paint me with a brusg others use???

      all of us have capacity for good and bad;

      i focus on doing some good and how wonderful that nut jobs read me too!

      Here are JUST 6 months of my articles at Peoples Voice:

      http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/...

  •  fleming posts w/aryan nations lawyer (0+ / 0-)

    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/...
    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/...
     Hell, No - I Won't Go!!!
    Edgar J. Steele
     google edgar j. steele aryan nations, find lotsa lovely racist s%^&^
      plus the odious gilaad atzmon, lover of the protocols of the elders of zion
    http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/...

    •  I am ME NOT THEM!!! (0+ / 0-)

      JUDGE ME ON MY WORDS

      NOT OTHERS who are also published at same site

      goggle eileen fleming

      learn truth -don't slam me until you know me better

      and you don't know jack about me.

      i am also published at:

      http://www.opednews.com/...  

      http://dissidentvoice.org  

      e
      http://www.wearewideawake.org/

      •  dissident voice website (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        zemblan

          Also has a soft spot for Ernst Zundel, the Holocaust denialist, http://www.dissidentvoice.org/...
         The Martyring of a Nazi Sympathizer
        In Defense of Free Speech  
        by Kim Petersen
        www.dissidentvoice.org
        February 18, 2007

        •  Norman Finkelstein (0+ / 0-)

            As expected that piece in Dissident Voice cites his odious "Holocaust Industry, " polemic.
            A Marxist scholar, responds to Finkelstein here,
          Finkelstein’s Follies: The Dangers of Vulgar Anti-Zionism
          http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/...
          Tobias Abse

          From New Interventions, Vol.10 No.2, 2000

          NORMAN Finkelstein’s new book, The Holocaust Industry, does no service to the left, to Jews or to genuine anti-fascists of any variety. Objectively, this book, whose very title echoes the rhetoric of Holocaust denial rather in the way that the phrase ‘race relations industry’ is a hallmark of all British racists, provides considerable comfort to every Holocaust denier, neo-Nazi and anti-Semite on the face of the planet. It was no accident that the Evening Standard I bought on my way home from Finkelstein’s book launch in Bookmarks (where his presentation had somewhat disingenuously barely mentioned his third, longest and most controversial chapter) in July contained a ‘Diary’ item in which David Irving expressed his pleasure that Finkelstein had vindicated him against his critics.
          <SNIP>

        •  I AM NOT A DENIER!!! (0+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rusty Pipes

          My Polish Jew Grandfather died before i could ask him how many of our relatives were gassed and fried,

          But I figure more than a few.

          The once oppressed have now become the oppressors,

          Stick to WHAT I WRITE-attack that!

          I do NOT deny the Jewish Holocaust, nor the other 5 million innocent outcasts that also were gassed and fried BECAUSE GOOD PEOPLE DID NOTHING FOR FAR TOO LONG!

          End the Occupation is what i am saying-that will lead to peace and security for all.

          e

  •  Ernst Zundel on thepeoplesvoice.org (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    another American

    In all his odiousness.

    Eileen, it's essential for your credibility that you disassociate yourself from any site that takes a professional Jew-hater like Ernst Zündel seriously.

    In memory of Tom Disch.

    by zemblan on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:56:09 AM PDT

    •  How is it that (0+ / 0-)

      Everyone who comes by bragging of Palestinian misery and refusing to accept a two-state solution with continued existence of Israel as the answer winds up being associated with anti-semites?

      •  we can't overgeneralize (0+ / 0-)

        But this does present an obvious case in which the antisemitism issue should legitimately be brought forward. If "thepeoplesvoice.org" thinks that Ernst Zündel is a legitimate poster, then that tells us unambiguously where "thepeoplesvoice.org' is on the issue of antisemitism -- and they're on the wrong side of the line. And it's not a case of "oh, there they go screaming 'antisemitism' again just because someone's criticizing Israel."

        And I think there are, ultimately, simply people who have a Problem With Jews, but try to find mainstream-sounding ways to express that, and who find themselves attracted to the one-state "solution" for that reason. Although I won't point any specific fingers on DKos.

        In memory of Tom Disch.

        by zemblan on Tue May 22, 2007 at 01:09:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Look, I want to be read-engage in CONVERSATION (0+ / 0-)

      Its all about dialogue

      how will we ever live in peace if we only judge, judge, judge and
      never see when pearls are being offered?

      i am a spiritually centered justice and peace seeker.

      i also bear witness to life in occupied territory; i have been 4 times and am going back to document life in refugee camps thru children's eyes by spending my days with them and then blogging about it at night.

      What sites do you recomend i send my heart and guts to?

      I just want to get the truth out and WAKE USA Christians up-

      they are bamboozled by the cult of Hagee an inherently anti-Semitic putrid theology and neo-con politically driven.

      I am on a mission to WAKE them up-
      i am Christian, but NOT like that!

      And JC was NEVER a Christian-but he was a social justice radical revolutionary PALESTINIAN devout Jewish Road Warrior who ROSE UP/INTIFADA and challenged the Temple Priests job security by teaching the people they didn't need ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God-God loved them just as they were;
      sinners, diseased, outcasts, all living under OCCUPATION.

      Same deal today; it is empire i am after;
      USA and Israel; best friends in the world also the biggest bullies.

      WE THE PEOPLE ARE AND CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT!

      "Soon after I had published the pamphlet "Common Sense" [on Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion... The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."-Tom Paine

      ON with THAT Revolution.

      •  pragmatically (0+ / 0-)

        how will we ever live in peace if we only judge, judge, judge and
        never see when pearls are being offered?

        Eileen, if you willingly post your stuff on a site that you know also takes posts from the world's best-known Holocaust denier, then it is inevitable that you will be judged by that company, no matter what you think about Israel. You can't simply say, "pretend that's not there." If you do, you will simply convince the majority of Jewish posters here that you don't mind antisemitism very much, and in doing so you shut off your ability to communicate with them.

        In memory of Tom Disch.

        by zemblan on Tue May 22, 2007 at 01:14:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  CREDIBILITY (0+ / 0-)

      Should be based on WHAT I write;

      Who I AM

      Come, read me and then judge:

      http://www.wearewideawake.org/

    •  wow, that's really a hell of a site (0+ / 0-)

      Ain't it.

      Who could possibly refuse to post to such a site?

      It's an honor to appear among such noble posters!

      And such well-respected famous names!

      In memory of Tom Disch.

      by zemblan on Tue May 22, 2007 at 04:42:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Gershon's OK (0+ / 0-)

    here is email exchange:

    Hi,

    I am a new blogger at Daily Koss and still learning their rules, which I BROKE when i did:

    PLEASE READ

    2 People + 2 States=1 Peace/Piece

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    PLZ send OK to post

    thnx,
    e

    Gershon Baskin (1 hour ago)  
    to  Eileen Fleming    
    date  May 22, 2007 2:52 PM  
    subject  Re: NEED PERMISSION  
    mailed-by  gmail.com

    Ok with me

    Gershon

    •  More on Counterpunch (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      unfounded

        From the list of Doug Henwood, Marxist economist, columnist for The Nation.
       http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/...
       * Michael Neumann (a relative of Franz Neumann, by the way) has more
      fun with anti-Semitism: "Undoubtedly there is genuine ant-Semitism in
      the Arab world: the distribution of the Protocols of the Elders of
      Zion, the myths about stealing the blood of gentile babies. This is
      utterly inexucsable. So was your failure to answer Aunt Bee's
      letter." He goes on to dismiss anti-Semitism as more a feeling than a
      real threat. "I'm much more scared of really dangerous situations,
      like driving." The book often veers spuriously between this
      complacency and a justified dismissal of the abuse of the term
      "anti-Semitism" by apologists for Israeli policy without bothering to
      take real anti-Semitism very seriously.

      • Alexander Cockburn's piece is full of his typical turns of phrase -

      "a torrent of money from out of stat Jewish organizations...American
      Jewish money showered upon....outside Jewish money....Zionist
      influence on the media....Jewish families are proprietors of some of
      the most powerful newspapers in the country....[I]t's reasonable to
      point out that Jewish families control the new York Times and
      Washington Post." Weirdly, AC notes that the "most rabidly"
      pro-Israel of all the U.S. newspapers is the Wall Street Journal,
      "which is not Jewish owned" - so what's the relevance of pointing out
      the Jewish ownership of the NYT and WP, except to flirt with classic
      stereotypes?

      • Kurt Nimmo defends Amiri Baraka's terrible 9/11 poem, with its

      passage asking "Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers/To
      stay home that day/Why did Sharon stay away?"

      • Jeffrey Blankfort has a repulsive piece specifically aimed at

      refuting Chomsky's line that Israel serves U.S. imperial interests,
      arguing instead that it's the Israeli lobby and its money that's
      hijacked U.S. policy.

      • A pseudonymous congressional aide, George Sutherland, likens the

      U.S. government's relationship with Israel to Vichy France's with
      Nazi Germany's, and Congressional "Likudniki" to "Quislings." In the
      piece, "Sutherland" actually refers to the U.S. Senate as "the
      world's greatest deliberative body," which Cockburn would normally
      have sport with, except in this context.

      • Kathleen and Bill Christison, two retired CIA agents, describe

      Congress as "Israeli occupied territory," and refer to the "dual
      loyalties" of the Bush administration. They argue that the
      once-pragmatic Cheney was transformed by all the Israeli agents in
      the Bush administration. "[L]oyalty to Israel by government officials
      colors and influences US policymaking in ways that are extrmely
      dangerous," they conclude - as if Bush's neo-cons weren't driven by
      their own understanding of U.S. imperial interests.

      Doug

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